Transcript

INTERVIEW WITH LEON BYNER, ADELAIDE 5AA

THURSDAY 28 NOVEMBER 2002.

Re: school retention targets

BYNER: Tell me about the idea of not encouraging kids to stay on and complete year 12 when it has been suggested to me by even though in the apprenticeship business that because of the technical training and expertise required in the trade, year 12 is desirable.

BRENDAN NELSON: Well Leon, I think the people in the trade, the apprenticeships vocation education training and all of those who want to encourage people to remain on at school and to complete year 12 I think they are right. We need to do everything we possibly can to see that all of our children both find and achieve their own potential whatever that is. However what we need is a reality check and to realise that not all of our kids are biologically or socially equipped at least during their adolescence to stay on at school to complete year 12. I mean what we have got to do, is we have to have a vision of education that says that our children must understand the importance of education for life and training, which is about acquiring skills for a job that you want to undertake and the importance of remaining at school for as long as they are able. But I think Leon once you say to them, look 90 percent of you will complete year 12 the problem is that a lot of kids - long before us as parents or educational leaders - a lot of kids realise to what in their hearts they think they are best suited and the problem is if you say "right 90 percent will do year 12" unfortunately there will be a significant number that will just say there is no place for me and then we should not be surprised if we have got a lot of problems.

BYNER: Is this really about year 12 being more attuned to university than indeed to a trade or further education at TAFE?

BRENDAN NELSON: Well this is the problem Leon, our secondary education system has evolved to meet the needs and the demands of universities, so at the moment 29 percent of our kids go directly from school to university and what we need to understand is that 70 percent of them don’t. So what is happening is that there is now a transformation occurring with the secondary education system belatedly. That is, we are introducing vocational education and training like automotive and hospitality and engineering for example into our school environment and that increases the educational and training options for our kids at school to make it more attractive to them. But Leon we have got to realise that it is about time someone started to say this. We have got to realise that our children need to undertake learning and training right through out their lives. I mean my kids will probably have five to seven jobs before they retire unlike you and me where we probably have one, two or maybe three. But the problem is we have to say to them that you should see university as part of your life’s horizon but equally you have choices. You can go to TAFE, you can do an apprenticeship, we need to say to our kids, for some kids just turning up at school is a huge achievement and getting from school to the work force an even greater one and we should not allow our children to feel that their life value is determined by the educational and training choices they make. At the moment what is happening, all of these people that run around and say every kid has got to complete year 12 and university is the only way to go, what those people are saying is that if you don’t do that then in some way you are not as good as somebody that is. We want excellence, we want fulfilment and of course the last thing we are trying to do is encourage kids to leave school but we should be encouraging them to find and be their best.

BYNER: The target of reaching 90 percent retention rates in schools was agreed to by State and Federal Education Ministers are you reneging on this?

BRENDAN NELSON: Well I think this is something we need to be looking at Leon. I mean in an ideal world I have said to some of the people who are promoting for example that 90 percent will complete year 12 - I am saying to those people well why not a 100 percent? Why not 80 percent? Where does this 90 percent figure come from? And if you set the 90 percent figure are you then saying "oh well we think that 10 percent of our kids are not up to it". What we should do, in terms of objectives, is to say that we want to live in a society where every single one of us whatever our circumstances, wherever we live, whatever our politics, that we will help you to find and be your best. So for example if take (inaudible) out there at Salisbury High School, it is an absolutely outstanding model of what a school environment should be about.

BYNER: Well that was my next point. Obviously you are familiar and what I think they do is extraordinary but you see there is an example where a school has become a pathway if you like into all sorts of industries. The great worry is though that there are many schools that don’t do that Brendan and if you don’t go to Salisbury High you could well be in big trouble.

BRENDAN NELSON: I agree with you Leon and as I said what is happening at the moment is a transformation of education. We have now got 200,000 kids throughout the country who are doing vocational education and training in schools. We have 362,000 people that are in apprenticeships and training and 45 percent of them are under the age of 25. You have got 35,000 of them in the state of South Australia. We had 17,000 people most of the kids actually started apprenticeships and training in South Australia last year.

BYNER: I would put to you this, I think it is pretty important and this is from the training experts that ring me both on air and off air but many people in trades tell me that they require very good high school skills in order to move onto those trades now because the trades themselves have become very professional in terms of what academia they need and so therefore you almost need year 12 anyway. So isn’t really a question of making year 12 not only for university which is 30 percent of students but also the very relevance of those 70 percent who may do a trade. Isn’t that really the issue?

BRENDAN NELSON: Well you are absolutely right, I mean what employers are looking for Leon whether you are running a retail store or you a running a spray and paint business or you are running an IT business, you need kids that come out of school and who can read and write, count and communicate that can relate well to your other employees and also to your staff and the more education that any of us have the better off that we will be not only in terms of getting a job but for life.

BYNER: So what do you propose to do as the Federal Education and Training and Employment Minister? To try and make year 12 relevant not only to those who go to university but those who want a trade?

BRENDAN NELSON: Well the first thing we need to do Leon is we need to say to our children – that it is fundamentally important to you for your life and finding fulfilment that you have as much education a possible and you remain at school for as long as you are able. We also need, in doing that, to recognise that for some of our kids through all kinds of circumstances often beyond their own control, that whilst that might be the ideal it isn’t always the practical reality and we as governments need to be supporting school environments that offer options to kids at school. For some kids they might need to do year 10 over two years while they are having their drug problems and their family life supported. Some kids - we need to recognise - at the end of year 11, the reality is that if we can find them a job then they will feel fulfilled. We also need to have vocational educational and training available for kids in schools so that they have got choices other than just the pure academic stream. Although in any vocational education training we need some basic education as well and we also, of course, need to make sure that our kids realise that university should be a part of their life’s horizon and that they can - if they are not able to or don’t want to go straight from school to university - they can do it later in their life. In the end Leon, what education should be about is equipping young people to create the future they want not the one as we as society or sometimes as parents want to put upon them.

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